Ep. 20 Emotional Sobriety - A Soulversation With Michael Brant DeMaria

In this episode, I share a soulversation Michael DeMaria and I had on his podcast Musitations. United in our longtime commitment to healing codependency in our own lives, we explore emotional sobriety and how it relates to the well-being and creativity of the soul. 

Topics explored:

• What is emotional sobriety?
• Our personal journeys with healing codependency and learning to transmute feelings and emotions
• Feeling vs. Emoting and how they're both necessary 
• Our work to live beyond the drama triangle 
• Forming secure attachments outside of the drama triangle 
• Attachments vs. connections 

Click here to watch the video version of this episode

Michael's Website
Michael's Music on Pandora
The Drama Triangle

Thank you for listening and for being in the world.

With love,

McCall

Click here to read or listen to my book The Second Half of the Mountain: A Guide to Personal Alchemy After Awakening
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Transcript

McCall Erickson  0:03 
Hello, and thank you for tuning in to Falling Into Soul. I'm your host McCall Erickson. I have a special treat for you this episode, a soulversation about emotional sobriety that I had with my friend Michael DeMaria on his podcast Musitations. We created this episode with the intention of sharing it on both of our podcasts. And it feels good to share this with you here since a theme of this podcast has been how codependency has been and continues to be a huge part of my soul work. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Michael. He's an integrative wellness guide, a meditation, yoga and mindfulness teacher, a best selling author of many books, and a four time Grammy nominee for his amazing music that I have formed a late night addiction to on Pandora. His music is a journey and a balm for the soul. I'll put links to his music and his website in the show notes. I'll also put a link to the video version of our soulversation if you're interested in watching. It's an honor to share space with Michael. Here's our soulversation.

Michael DeMaria  1:16 
Welcome back to Musitations. I am so thrilled today to have McCall Erickson back. We had her back on episode six in alchemy and the awakening of the soul. And McCall, you know, I shared in the last podcast that her work, her poems, her writing, her podcast just touched my heart, it really resonated with my own experience of doing soul work. And this idea that we need to drop in and not, not avoid the mess, not avoid the dark, not avoid, that fertile soil that is the richness that everything else grows from. We also come from similar struggles with more traditional spirituality or traditional music, more traditional healing methods versus having to take our own journey and finding that inner healer, that inner alchemist, that inner shaman, inner guru inside. And so we're really both passionate about helping empower people to become their own best guide, to really listen to their own experience, their own heart, their own emotion. And so I really, the reason I asked McCall back on, the reason I asked you back on the McCall, I saw you post the drama triangle on one of your posts, and for those who don't know the drama triangle. And I'll let you say more about it. But it's something that I had forgotten about I had learned about years and years ago and part of my codependency recovery really big part of my codependency recovery. Many people may have heard about the rescuer, perpetrator, victim triangle is often the way it's also referred to. And because we have both been on recovery of codependency, I really said gee, I just you know, spontaneously said we should do a podcast on this and you were just as excited about it. And we talked about the importance of emotional sobriety.

And some of you might be wondering why on Musitations would I want to talk about emotional sobriety, because so many people think of the arts as you know, diving into our passion and feeling everything we feel and that's true where oftentimes people feel meditation is about either not thinking not feeling, or at least at the very most stepping back from our feelings, which is what it is on one level. But for me, particularly as a creative as an artist, musician, poet, it's critical to be in touch with what's going on in this moment in my heart, my body, my soul, my fingertips, my feet, my everything. And it took me a long time I wasn't prone to alcohol or drugs or other kinds of substances, but when it came to rescuing others in getting in their drama, and feeling that, that I somehow I would over empathize, you know that their feelings became my feelings or I would know what they were feeling before I knew what I was feeling. And when I first heard that word, emotional sobriety it just hit me like a ton of bricks will say, oh my lord, that's my drug. That's, that's my drug, which is a little bit hard to say. But I I also think that a lot of people think emotion and feelings are the same. And that's one thing I would love to share. And I just always find you to be particularly articulate about this, and you're so passionate in your work about it. And you, you know, you really are willing to wade into those difficult conversations. So without further ado, and because I feel like anybody out there either trying to meditate or be creative, or follow your muse, understanding these dynamics will serve you tremendously and bring some more sanity. Because I also find, I don't know, if you find this to McCall you know, I, I actually will lose my, my creative focus often. So one thing, pouring my heart into creativity, it's another thing when I get lost, and lose my focus because of the emotionality, as, as you've said, and talked about when we've had these conversations. So without further ado, I want to welcome my alchemical Soul Sister McCall Erickson, singer, songwriter, and artist healer, to Musitations once again, thanks for being here, McCall.


McCall Erickson
Thanks for having me. You honor me so well, it just fills me with amazing light. Thank you so much. I love your question. What does emotional sobriety have to do with Musitations and creativity? And my mind immediately says everything. Because, for me, if I don't have that emotional sobriety, and I know we can expand on what that even is, I'm disconnected from my true creative flow. Like there's a difference between getting caught up in all of the stories of the ego or hijacked by our drug of choice, helping others, like feeling everything, feeling other people being hijacked by that, and being involved in that. But there's a difference between that and sinking down into that true flow of our soul.

So I really love that you call it your drug of choice, because in my early years, like I've been working on this for 25 plus years now 25, I shouldn't exaggerate, exaggerate 25. And I remember feeling like something was wrong, like I was out of control. And I had some really close people in my life who were in recovery for alcoholism and drug abuse. And I started going to 12 step groups with them because I'm like, this is amazing. And I felt like an imposter because I really didn't have a problem with drugs or alcohol. But I loved the 12 steps. And then it took me a while to realize, Oh, my God, I'm actually a codependent. I'm an enabler. That's why I'm always in relationships with addicts, and alcoholics like so. It's really takes a while to understand the drug because it's subtle, and it masquerades as doing good and helping others and love, it masquerades as love and it is love on one level. It's an intense feeling of love, that we're helping others and getting, you know, getting into their emotions and their stories and their narratives. But the underlying point, I think, for realize is, the question for me is am I being hijacked? Am I being hijacked by my emotions hijacked by the narrative of my ego hijacked by the narrative of somebody else's ego and story? Or am I living that deeper pull that as Rumi says unfold your own story unfolds, your own myth. Am I living that? Or am I just being hijacked by my love for people and the emotional storms? So that's a question that I'm always working with always moving with it's an ongoing thing.

Michael  9:10 
That's beautiful McCall, I really like that word hijacked. And it's really helped me as well. Actually, I just got finished with this great book. I don't know if I've mentioned it to you, but the White Knight Syndrome. I have to send you the link to it. It's it's really really good and it's it's so ties into this and by the way, I was the same way I I loved going to 12 step meetings even though I you know, I didn't actually after my vision quest 28 years, I didn't drink at all for 10 years and then I drink very, very, you know, have a sip of wine a couple times a year that that would be a big deal. So, and I felt there was something about the 12 steps was so critical for me. And of course, I also found my way to Al-anon and, you know, CoDa and have my little CoDa chips you know, that I still use and that I give out. And I think that that's where some of us particularly, because right now and why I felt it was so refreshing seeing it from you was we are in such a 'fix it"culture. And everyone's trying to tell us they have the answer for us. And I think it's a real danger, actually. Because, you know, there's wonderful stuff. And I think also you can tell when a, when a culture is in decline when every other person is becoming a healer, therapist or coach, you know, it's, but it but it's true. I mean, that's, that's part of what's happening is that we're going through, I can't remember if I mentioned before, what it but I see us on this global soul initiation. And so we do need each other to do the work that only we can do. Right? And that kind of understanding that what I often will tell people, I don't have any answers for you, but I can share with you what I found to be true for me and I can hold space as I help you find what's true for you. And that, you know, took me years, I mean, part of my career, we're talking at the beginning, before we got on the air about you having to kind of unlearn what you were taught in music school, and I had to unlearn I sometimes think of myself as recovering psychologists, you know, after retiring last year from 30 plus years, and I,
you know, you're taught to have the answers you're taught, you know, you're even taught that answers which are not the answers actually. And, and I think that you know, and this idea of emotional sobriety, and love maybe both of us to say, how we're currently understanding and learning about it. And as always, I think it's an never ending unfolding. But one thing I found, and I know, this was part of the notes, who actually talked about the difference between emotionality and feeling. Let me tell you, what I my first thought about it and want to hear what you think.

One way of understanding for me, that's been helpful is feeling is always here and now. You know, feeling is what feeling into what is here, and now that emotions for me have a lot more to do with unresolved experiences or past experiences where we, it wasn't safe to feel in here now. So that's one way I tend to think about it, but share with share with the listeners and with me, your understanding of that difference and how you kind of notice the difference and how you practice the difference.

McCall  12:45 
That's, that's so good. Because I think the emotionality and the emotions, and I'm not a psychologist at all, but I, so I don't have the training you do. But the emotions seem to build up around trauma around unresolved trauma. And it's habitual, it's habits that we build up around that. So we can't get to the feeling that we really need to be digesting and processing here. And now it's like, something happens. And we're on automatic, habitual. Well, these are my emotions around that, right. And one thing that helped me tremendously when I started learning about feeling and dropping down into the feeling that's here now, is that those feelings almost always have no story attached to them. They're just sensations. Yes, yes, they're just energy. And so I started this thing that I call feeling without words. And it helped me feel separate the story about the feeling or the emotions from the feeling and feel without words, which I think is maybe what a lot of people do when they begin meditating, right? detaching the mind stories from being in the body and all that. So feeling without words, to me means separating the ego story, because the ego is going to create a narrative around what's happening and around what I'm actually feeling. Learning to separate those two was the hugest thing for me, because the ego narrative wants to take you on a ride. It's a roller coaster ride, and it doesn't solve anything. And it doesn't transmute anything, it doesn't move, anything, doesn't transform anything, you're in the same place you were, after you took the roller coaster ride of the ego, or after you get hijacked by someone else's narrative. That's the thing. It can be our ego narrative or someone else's. We take the ride, we come back, and we're the ones who are left with the mess. So to me, it's like learning the feelings that are here and now that don't have a story attached to them that need to be digested like food, right? It's like a meal, you digest those feelings. You process them and they move they move through. That's another reason you can no you're actually feeling instead of being caught in the ego loop of emotionality is the feelings actually move. They're fluid like water.

Michael
Yes. Beautiful. I love that. Yeah, it's so true. I find in in any listeners out there, you know one thing that you can practice I find the same thing to be true that especially dropping into the belly, the pelvic floor, breathing into the soles of the feet really, really getting to that visceral parts of the body and the parts of the body we ignore so much. When I'm in story, my breath will slow or I'll stop breathing. And I'll get into drama. I'll feel the drama take me over. And it's literally like, like breaking a trance, right? Isn't it like, trance is like, okay, I'll do it. There's really deep belly breath. And I've been more and more into this, you know, the third diaphragm, which is the pelvic bowl, you know, there's actually three diaphragms the throat and chest and then the belly, and then the pelvic bowl, and dropping down. And if I can breathe into that space, you're absolutely right, this story drops the story dissolves. Because the story is happening up here, you know, so, so I really love that and, and, and yes, I agree 100% that it's it's unresolved trauma. And so the ego keeps trying to find a way. It's a  called the repetition compulsion, where the mind keeps trying to get mastery over something where it felt wounded, it lost status it whatever it might be. And so I do I do think that's so beautiful that when we come into the present moment, because yeah, the egos about trying to power up or the other, the other little mantra uses wisdom, breathe, breathing deeply is no shame, no blame, because ego either wants to either blame or go into shame, right? Either it's their fault, or my fault. You know, when it's nobody's fault. It's just situations, that's just like you were saying fluid flowing unfoldings. And that's why I like the word soul knowing that the soul is the soul is a river, the soul is a fluid unfolding is a verb, not a noun, that we are, you know, you're McCalling along, along that, those dramas, those narratives always have to do with nouns. You did this to me, I did that to you, you know, which, which really is of is a illusion, in the sense that, you know, we're no longer in the Newtonian view of objects in space, you know, and this is, this is this idea of, you know, we are music, you know, that we are vibration, and you just have it, you know, I always love in your writing, you just have such an intuitive sense of all this stuff, you know, and you just, and you've done your work, and believe me, doing personal work, to me is much more important than reading textbooks and, you know, getting degrees I mean, you know, because there's plenty of, quote, psychologist, psychologist, health professionals who haven't done any of their own work out there, and, you know, can do more harm than good, because if you haven't done your work, and you you pose as if you have some answer for the other person, you can actually do harm, because you're going to actually alienate them even more from their inner wisdom. So so I really love that. And I love the idea of the digesting, feeling processing. It's coming back to what you so beautifully talk about as its alchemical, its transmutation, turning the lead into gold, right? It's in turning, I think of often depression as a pressed down, emotion, right, you're depressing, you're pushing down, or even the feeling, as opposed to, you know, the, you know, kind of a mutiny of the soul. It's like, feel what you feel and find some way to express it and be with it. And, and preferably without story.

McCall  19:09 
So that actually segues into something that I think it's a really important point that Pete Walker talks about in his book, The Tao of Fully Feeling, can't recommend it enough for people who were feeling this. And he talks about the difference between feeling and emoting and how both of them are necessary to healing. And so feeling would be the more feminine passive part what we've been talking about feeling without words feeling without story where you go inward, and you have to digest it inward. And you you know, you take the blame away, you take the shame away and you feel you go in feel digest, it's not an active process, it's passive, it's very passive. But then the the active, more masculine part of the healing is what you just said, finding a way to express the feeling which we need to do and you talk about so beautifully it gives me chills just thinking about it when you went on your vision quest and realize that you had so much unprocessed grief. And that one way you found to process the grief was through, it makes me cry through the flutes and through the music. And to me, that would be the emoting or releasing. So we process that sometimes we need to release it, but you're releasing it in a non-emotionality way, in a in an aligned way. And another important thing about how we release our emotion when it needs to be released, is not taking it out on other people doing the least amount of damage we can.

I had a lot of unprocessed anger when in college when I started really digging into all this stuff, and I bought myself a plastic bat. And I would beat my bed in my dorm room and in everywhere I lived with my plastic bat and I remember carrying that from place to place for like 10 years and till I finally realized I didn't need it anymore. But that was a really safe way to release the anger. Not everything can be internally digested. We also need the release. And of course music is that for me too, because I can music is and songwriting is the one place where I can tell the truth. Like it's the one place where I can it doesn't have to have it doesn't have to have a story or anyone to attach it. This is what I love about songwriters, all you need is three chords and the truth, like l latched on to that so much. That's all I had. So finding a way without lashing out like you said blaming shaming without perpetuating the trauma without perpetuating it without passing it on to someone else. Finding a way to hopefully emote and release it express it is as important as that internal feeling. Both are both are hugely necessary.

Michael  22:09 
Beautiful. Oh, I love that and thank you it's so important. This step towards expression. You know, in fact, I don't know if I mentioned I've, you know, this came to me in the vision at 18. But I haven't had a chance to really write about it. And it's it's something I hope to put in this next book souling. But I call it Ontosynthesis. In fact, my you know, my, my company Ontos and Ontos music on Ontos World Press all come from Ontos meaning being which also though originally came to me through ontosynthesis. Ontos means the ongoing numinous tracking and soul. Reframing on onto synthesis is not a theory of trying to just simply describe, like photosynthesis. So photosynthesis turns light into life. Onto synthesis happens in the human heart, and it turns life particularly suffering into love. And it happens when we fully feel like we let our experience fully into our heart. And there's, I think it's so cool that the heart chakra is considered green like chlorophyll. And that if we really, we take it in, we feel fully what it is we feel and then give it expression. It turns into love and wisdom. Love compassion was us. That's actually I don't I don't talk about that much. But you just inspired that because you said it so beautifully. It's like that's ontosynthesis. That's, and I really feel that we are creating well, Teilhard de Chardin said this, he said, we're creating a noosphere at noosphere, like the atmosphere that just like, on this gets me emotional.


You know, the plants for you know, millions of years created the oxygen, so paving the way for us, you know, and that here we're literally creating an atmosphere of conscious love. For whatever's to come. If we do this work that when each of us do our work, when we feel our suffering all the way through and give it expression and actually turn it into beauty. You know, deep beauty like native people talk about, we're literally creating a new kind of atmosphere on the, on the planet, that we will one day that literally we're creating a sphere of consciousness, it's not embodied, it's not in our skull. It's It's It's a field that we are, we have the option to either contribute to or not. So hoping that I don't care anymore. If it sounds too woowoo to anyone out there, but I know I can share that with you that so so thank you for giving such a beautiful expression of what I consider ontosynthesis.

McCall 25:00
That's really beautiful and I love it. Like that's to me, alchemy. Like that's what personal alchemy is like, we're the alchemy lab. And we have this opportunity to turn our personal suffering into something beautiful that goes into the collective and changes the energy of the collective. And you said this in your book that trick your book ever flowing on. The trick is to realize that when you're working on yourself, you're working on the good for the good of all. And it's hardly ever personal. It's always the personal as it relates to the collective it affects everyone. And I think this point of understanding and realization for people who are moving from the codependent way of relating in the drama triangle, realizing that if you let go of trying to fix things for everyone else, and you realize what your own personal work is, and you do it, you're contributing more than you would if you were being hijacked. And and in that codependent, codependent frenzy of trying to control everything and change everything. If you step back for a moment, and focus on your personal part, which is hard to do. When you're not used to doing it, then you are contributing more to the global field of energy that increases with all this love and beauty that can come out. Otherwise, you're stuck. That's why it's called a triangle. You're just stuck in the same way. You go back and forth, and back and forth between those roles, thinking you're doing something but it's the same stories on repeat over and over and over.

Michael
Oh, this so so well said and, and that, you know, good segue to talk a little more about the drama triangle that I think it's harder for us to see, as helpers, you know, in the difference between a caretaker and a caregiver that I was taught was a caregiver gives without any expectation return. But a caretaker. There is a subtle subconscious need and desire to be appreciated. To hear a thank you for the person to actually follow through and do it. And if you find yourself having emotions around what they do or don't outcome, because again, the care caregiving and the non codependent way you're not attached to outcome. Where caretaking you can be. And also if you're in that place of enabling where we are in one way I think of enabling is if you're giving to your detriment, right. That's so good to know that if you're also and the person is either staying the same or getting worse, and you're getting worse than you know, it's like I said, you know, you meet somebody in quicksand or if you're with a loved one, and you're walking through the woods, and they fall in quicksand, you know, our intention, or I should say our default, least my default was often to, you know, jump in this quicksand with them, like, let me help you out, right, and then you're in the quicksand. But even standing and trying to pull them out is dangerous. Even giving them a rope is dangerous, because you're not sure if they really want to get out. So I always say, get a long rope, tie one side of the rope to a tree, throw them the other side of the rope and be a coach, you know, and then you can see a lot of people will drop the rope, because they're not actually interested in getting out and and again, if you've been enabling and being that rescuer, the way the drama triangle works, just for people that haven't heard of this before, and I'm going to put a link to it in the comment section that as soon as you stop enabling, you will be considered the perpetrator. Yep, yep. It's like, well, I can't believe you used to be such a nice person. Like, no, I'm not a doormat anymore, you know. And so, and also realizing that one of the most beautiful things we can do for people is let them feel the full weight of their existence on their shoulders, you know, just I would like to say everybody needs to feel 100% responsibility for their health and happiness. And one of the things they're the two things I see  relationships the most, and I've learned this the hard way through my own experience is feeling the other person is responsible for your happiness or feelings and having unrealistic expectations of the other person and yourself actually. So you know, this sense of I what I call a heart warrior, expect nothing be ready for anything be grateful for everything and take 100% responsibility you know in recovery work is you know, we always with the fourth step is we're going to look at our part in whatever happened. And and that was also so freeing because even when I'm feeling hurt when I'm feeling rejected when I'm feeling Wow, look at everything I did for you and you just just drop me like that as a friend or whatever and being able to know You know what? Maybe I was contributing to the hurt, maybe I was hurting you by helping in the way I was or maybe and that was that was a really hard thing I don't know for you but for me it was very humbling painful tried it, trying to tune into that without self hate or self contempt but it's it's much more hard to see how we hurt people as codependents because we're so rewarded for it in our culture. We live in the most codependent culture that's ever existed.We are so rewarded for being the white knight. And when that's not often, in fact, I'm not sure it's ever what people really need. You know, and, you know, the whole old saying, you know, give a man a fish feed him for a day teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime. So I can't remember that. All of the updated I think you call it the compassion triangle where you're being a coach instead of a rescuer. You're being..instead of a victim you're being Do you remember them? Do you remember?

McCall
Yeah, so, yeah. So
the, the rescuer transmutes to the supporter and the coach. The victims transmutes to the survivor thriver, and the perpetrator transmits to the challenger. Nice. Which is, yeah, it's tiny, subtle differences. And you can feel them in yourself. Yeah. When you when you're doing the difference, but yeah, yeah.

Michael
Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. And I will put those those connections down there. I was looking at some of our other notes, and I noticed a couple things. You know, you had noted that we were talking about resentment, and feeling self righteous. Resentment, such a tough one, you know, and again, recovery. fourth step is all about our resentments, you know, looking at...And the way I like to think of it, I want to really want to hear your thoughts about it, and what's supported you and maybe tips for the listeners that comes back over and over again to expectation, you know, that, thinking that the world somehow is going to go along with my script, you know, it's like, you're not, you're not playing your role in this script, you know, and it's like, yep, yep. And, and I often challenge myself and others, like, Can you taste for a moment? What would it feel like to let go of all of your beliefs and expectations about yourself? others and reality? Just, can you give me a little taste of that? Because people will argue to me up and down like, Well, are you telling me this was not reasonable? This is not a reasonable request that, you know, and, and, of course, the bottom line is, you know, nothing is fair, nothing is resigned. There's nothing, there's no stone tablet in the sky, saying people are going to abide by the 10 commandments, much less my script for what ethical living is. So anyway, those are just some thoughts, but whatever hits you, or whatever you'd like to respond to from there.

McCall
Yeah, so there's one. One thing that's burning in me that I feel like would be really good to bring to this conversation. The... you said, we live in the most codependent culture ever. I mean, it permeates everything, every narrative that we're a part of when we leave our front doors, and hopefully not in our front doors as much after we do the work. But um...so to me, the root of what keeps us in the triangle and in that narrative of victim, rescuer and perpetrator is a fundamental disconnect with our core worth, which, so when we're disconnected from our core worth, we get our worth based on what we can do for other people, or how we can control things. Right? Once you're reconnected with your sense of worth, and you talk about this a lot, like finding that connection to soul and nature, through the breath, and through music or whatever it is. We are nature and finding that our worth is inherent in our existence. It's not based on anything else, nothing, nothing. That's it like there are no more qualifiers every person who is alive and has a breath has worth that's it. But we're we're disconnected from our worth because of trauma right? trauma disconnects us from that core worth that we are nature we are God we are love all that. So we disconnect. And so our worth is based on how we can make other people feel how we can control the narrative. So anytime I'm feeling that control that need to control the story, make people do a certain thing is because I'm uncomfortable, why am I uncomfortable? Drop down even farther. Where have I been hurt and wounded before? Drop down even below that. Where's my core worth? beneath the wound. So it's layers deep, layers deep to get to that and operate from a place of core worth, where we're seeing, we're connected to that in ourselves. And we see it in everyone else. Like you're saying, everyone needs to feel the weight of existence on their shoulder. Conversely, they need to feel the connection of their worth based on their existence and nothing else. And everything is .. the heart warrior, I think you said the expect nothing be ready for everything. I'm always saying to people, life owes you nothing. Life owes us nothing.
Breath is the gift breath is the gift. We are not owed anything. So a product of being in a codependent society is entitlement.

We think we're owed something. I mean, this the gift is breath. That's it. That's it. I know, that's not fun for the ego to hear, or when you know, when we have so much trauma, and we need to maintain a sense of control somehow, that's not a fun idea to think that life doesn't owe us anything. But it's the reality. And that's where the creativity and flow with nature and the deeper voice that resonates through the earth, and everything around us, that's where that connection comes in. And so you're living and breathing in direct connection with that, that's a different story. That's a different, different unfolding.

Michael
beautiful beautiful, oh, just speaking to my heart. And it's the kind of thing you know, on a vision fast you experience when you when you, thank you, thank you for that McCall. Everyone out there letting that just kind of hit a bit, you know, this is it is all grace, the gift is the breath, we are not owed anything I really loved that is such an important, you know, ground, you know, coming into this, even to me that was that was the real felt experience out there on my, my first solo fast and that continued to lament in the wild. In one of my prayers was, you know, air to breathe, and earth to be, I couldn't even say earth to stand on because I was so weak at times without food or water was literally that the most precious thing was my breath.

And realize that was everything else that itself was grace, but everything else was Grace is grace, always grace. And I think it goes very much to our denial of death to in our culture, you know, we we deny, because that truth reminds us we, we come here and everything we will learn to love and claim we have to give away you know, and that's just it's another another truth the ego doesn't want to hear. And yet that is that is the ground of genuine deep compassion, wisdom and love. And so and that's why I like to think of every breath as a note in the song of today, coming into existence and dying, you know, every moment we are being born and dying, every breath, every breath and, and so I i love that. And I love it. And if I think if we we can invite each other to be in that truth. You know, by the grace of God go I you know, we we really are doing our soul work, we're you know, really we're inviting people into that
essential vulnerability that lets us wake up you know, and that is so much what I find in your work and in your words. I love how passionate you get about it just touches my heart. So it's really you're living and breathing it and it's so so valuable and I think that's such an also an existential corrective to a lot of the abundance kind of messages out there and it doesn't mean because I think the corollary is that then everything is I mean to me the abundance is the air you know, look how much air we have to breathe around but but the translating it into somehow I deserve you know this much money, or this kind of house, or this kind of party or whatever, you know, we get into, there's a real the ego co-ops a deep, existential truth or ontological truth about the gift of being itself the gift of breath. So I really love that you're always so you know, like, like even having that, you know, that falling into soul that
you can in some ways, you know have to fall from grace to find your soul, you know, we have to fall off that pedestal. In any case, that's an interesting circle that I know, and I know you've shared this too...When we remember that our deepest awakening came from our deepest defeat. We have no business saving other people from their defeat.

McCall  40:56 
It's disrespectful in many ways. It's disrespectful to engage or interrupt their process of falling. Oh, you know,

Michael  41:06 
beautiful. Aho. And I think that's, I'm loving that we're kind of leaning into that and landing there unintentionally. Because, you know, I, we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. Everyone's existence is playing out. God coming into being and then having to, to die, you know, whether you take the Christian or whatever spiritual tradition you come from, there is the death, rebirth, understanding that each have to live that out, and I truly see us each I think I've mentioned before they a nerve ending or a node of divine here, consciousness in this field of infinite awareness, and instead, another way, where each and, you know, a nerve ending of the Divine that that were a microcosm of the macrocosm that that and that for the soul and be initiated, we must allow that person to go into their depths, which, whether it's unraveling losing their mind, that doesn't mean not to hold space, but not to interfere. I've loved that you said their process. You know, how many people keep the caterpillar from cocooning? You know? And, and unfortunately, our healthcare system is terrible at interrupting soul initiation by medication. Even therapy times can keep people away. We certainly know how traditional religion has, you know, I don't know if you know, Bill Plotkin I, one of my dearest teachers would always say, you know, hell is just the filibuster to keep you away from your soul?

McCall
Oh, that's good. Yeah.

Michael
We have other filibusters, you know, the concept of depression as opposed to a dark night of the soul. So I really, the thing I know you do in your work, and I hear most often from people I work with, is they'll literally say thank you, for doubt, validating my suffering. Thank you for validating my suffering. And as a recovering codependent, I think also, you know, thank you for not interfering with my suffering is what I like to hear sometimes, although that doesn't happen as often.

McCall  43:29 
Right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing you did mention recently, what's, you know, how do we form healthy attachments? Because in the codependent triangle, the drama triangle, we obviously have attachments based on our trauma and our unhealed wounds. But then when we work through that, and and we come out and we're living in a new energy, we're still in this world, we're still dependent on each other for so many things, and how do we form healthy attachments, so we're not just bypassed out into some bliss land where nothing hurts us and we're not suffering. And what you what you touched on, to me is the key, realizing that everything is life and death cycle, including ourselves, everything we love is in the process of disappearing. And learning to process our feelings and emotions properly. And grieve properly helps us realize that we can do that again and we will do it again. And we are always in that process at some point. So feeling learning to feel learning to process feelings, learning to release emotions. To me, and I call that all alchemy, alchemizing and transmuting. To me, it builds a confidence, not that we will never have to suffer or never have to lose what we Love again or who we love. But that when we do, when the time comes, the time will come. Every attachment has an expiration. So for me, it's about learning to attach, and knowing with confidence that I have the tools necessary to go through the process of grief, and let go and process whatever I need to. When it's time. Every attachment has an expiration date, in this physical world, amen.

Michael
Amen. Aho. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. And in fact, I thank you for bringing up attachment. You know, there's, and for those who may not be as familiar to things I've been really helpful. And again, my my own journey, my recovery journey, is understanding the difference between attachment and connection. And connections are these relationships that, you know, don't undermine us when they go awry, as much as we might not see the person for three months or six months when we reconnect, just like you know, but it's stable, consistent, it's enjoyable, where you know, kind of, you know, connect in that way. Attachment based relationships which are mirroring are very early relationships of parent child in particular, you know, that he can, and you know, you're in attached relationship when something goes wrong, and you fall into what we call primal panic, you know, visceral sense of becoming undone. And, of course, This often happens romantic relationships. But it certainly can happen with friendships certainly happens with siblings, and parents and children, because they are attachment based by definition. And attachment, although I don't, you know, so funny, and, you know, Buddhism and meditation and yoga, we talk about non attachment. But the fact is, I love what you said, it's inevitable that we have attached relationships. And part of that I think, is asking yourself, you know, when you're in a relationship is this attachment based or connection, if it is attachment based, and you know, and not to get too much into the psychology of secure attachment, and, you know, insecure attachment or anxious of waiting, so I read, that could be another podcast. But the issue for me always is two things. Number one, like you said, because you have to know that being willing and able to be part of the attachment relationship is going to be more investment of time and energy. And also when it is disrupted, which, like you said, which I'm getting to, it's inevitable that it has an expert the expiration date, that just because it does provide a tremendous amount of security and joy and comfort. Because, you know, we do come into the world so vulnerable as infants, that we do attach, we have to attach in that way. But when I tell people which the ego doesn't like hearing, either, all relationships will either end in abandonment, leaving or betrayal. And people just are tore up. No, that's can't be as like, even if it's death, even if it's amazing and incredible till death, that's still leaving. That's still even maybe abandonment.

And so this idea of exploration, and this is something you don't find in the psychological literature, of course, is that, to me, our first attachment, the attachment based relationship we should cultivate the most is to being at large spirit, the ground source, God goddess, whatever you want to call it, the Tao. This is, this is what we had the opportunity as adults, true adults to do, when we didn't have that choice as infants, we carry that imprint of those early attachments or those early attachment wounds, but we we have responsibility, and part of the soul initiation for me is experiencing your felt connection to that larger presence. And cultivating it, because it's it is the, to me the most important relationship and should be our first you know, priority not to stay away from but actually to enter into relationships from a place where we'll be a bit more resilient. It doesn't mean Yeah, there won't be tears, it doesn't mean there won't be hurt, it doesn't mean you're not going to have suffering, but it's manageable, you know, so and the other The second one is then to our own soul, our attachment to our own soul, and our own self care and our own care of soul. And then then to our attachment based relationships. And I think if those first two are in place, we also are more capable of making healthier decisions when it comes to how we are going to invest in because it is an investment, all relationships are investment to some degree.

And I always like say, is this relationship are the are they making enough deposits to cover the withdrawals they're making? If not, you need to close the account, you know, or at least decrease their you know, their ability to you know, Hey, you got a deficit here till that accounts filled. There's, there's nothing, there's nothing here. And that took me a long time to learn because i would i would give and give and give to my detriment. And I've, I share this in my books, but I've burned out three times in my life, you know, I just don't want to do that. I probably do it again, who knows, but I really feel in a much healthier place than I ever have. But it's still hard. It's hard to say no, it's hard to the drug of being the white knight, the drug of codependency that, you know, we see it in movies, we hear it on the radio, the message is, you know, well, Jesus, Mother Teresa, you know, you you become the martyr.

So, so anyway, thank you for those thoughts. I have no, I always whenever we're talking, it seems to go so fast. But yeah, we have a little bit of time left anything else that you feel? I think we covered most everything outside of the, well we touched a little bit on this the self righteousness which comes into the white knight and all that but, but also if there's anything else that you Well, I'm gonna say well, I'll add one other thing in case something besides self righteousness hits.

One of the things that I'm also very passionate about is jealousy, possessiveness, like unlearning jealousy and possessiveness, because in our culture, we, we tend to see people as property very much like our you know, we think you can own the land and indigenous people had much more open understandings around sexuality and in the many people that you could love or connect to. And, you know, I have no, we never talked about things like polyamory, anything, and I'm not that I'm promoting that. But I that to me, the idea of many loves just being even if it's non-sexual, or whatever, but we have a real issue with jealousy and and I've come to really question whether or not jealousy in and of itself is kind of a creation of Western culture and a fairly devastating, unhealthy emotion that, like anger, that we're so terrified of exposing our loved ones to jealousy, and envy and how powerful is when you could admit I'm not saying not to admit jealousy, but to say, Wow, I'm, I am feeling jealous, let me let me explore that just like we would with anger, just like we might write it out and explore it. But it's, there's a lot of shame around even allowing that into our consciousness. So whether it's self righteousness, or jealousy, that these ideas of kind of how we distance from our, our sense of seeing our attachments as property, you know, somehow, not only obeying our script, but somehow our property.

McCall
Yeah. Which goes along the lines with that entitlement and deserving and not seeing the gift in the breath and the abundance. Because there's a like an underlying scarcity mentality that comes with jealousy and possession and all that stuff. When really, when you're connected to the great source, everything's abundant. Everything's abundant, you don't own it. It's given to you freely. And so it's a different, a different energy that you're coming from. But I, I really do think that rather than like you said, shaming it or shunning it, those things like jealousy, and fear and resentment and self-righteousness and pride, any of the anger all of those is, like, ridiculous in our society, because those things cause the most damage. But then, we're supposed to, we're supposed to act like they're not there.

Michael
Or be above them. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly I think it's like self righteous, like also Yeah, like somehow it. It's the, there's the spiritual bypass we've talked about, but there's also the social bypass, like, you know, and it's very damaging, just very, to act as if we are either above or beyond it, but also that because the only way to transform it, and alchemize it is to own it, embrace it, and express somehow and I just want to add you know, that even also expressing even after we might write the song or the poem or whatever, some emotions do require action and taking steps to make changes. You know, that the feeling may get to a place of Wow, no, I don't feel safe in this situation or this relationship or with this person where I don't feel that I'm being seen or heard or or respected. You know, that sometimes these emotions
by alchemizing them and expressing them. Because I do think we can creatively bypass just like spiritually bypass, which I have done both, by the way, just to my life, but also asking that deeper question, does this require action on my part? like, if I find myself going over and up the same thing, if I express it in dissipates and the issue doesn't arise, then you know, that's fine. But if something I keep hitting a wall or something is, this is not okay. Because it's one thing, US keeping our side of the street clean. But then how, you know, if somebody you know, out there, if you're out there, somebody is trying to, you know, trying to rescue you, we've talked more about trying to not be the rescuer. But it also goes, you know, as somebody is trying to, you know, there's a lot of rescuers out there who have hidden agendas, you know, or at least are, you know, can pull you into a situation where all of a sudden, you can find your, your boundaries being violated, and you end fall in that drama, triangle from any standpoint, and I don't know if you knew this, but you know, I'm actually, you know, my new passion is film. And I'm, I'm doing some screenwriting right now. And I find it's, it's just fun, number one, but number two, it's like working on all these themes. I didn't know the drama triangle was originally created, because he was a screenwriter and wanted to analyze, he was analyzing scripts, and he actually said, the best scripts or even the best plays, like you know, with, in Shakespeare and stuff, the more people take different turns throughout the triangle in one story, the more profound and the more we love it. So actually, is that interesting, you know, and so the other side of it, I guess, you know, part of the normalizing, I think it's important for everyone out there to know, be aware of it be moved towards these healthier things that McCall and I have been talking about, but know that part of the human drama is to struggle in these places, and, and just become more conscious. And you know, if you feel like even your are in lost in drama right now, just know that that's part of your, your current path, and we'd walk out of the theater, if it was boring, you know, that, you know, part of We are here to, to fully feel the key is to just bring a bit more consciousness, I do feel if we can get our drama through our writing and music and keep our personal lives as healthy and healed as possible. But that, you know, that takes takes a while it takes takes can take decades to do that doesn't mean you won't I have fallen into this, you know, I've oftentimes been sober for years, emotionally sober for years, and then fallen into the triangle again, and go, Whoa, how did that happen? Well, I'm usually a part of me is coming up to be healed, that I'd forgotten about or that I'd repressed. And the soul is always seeking deeper layers of healing and wholeness. And so that can happen to us at any time. And that's why we I think, talked a bit about that last time was the alchemical or shamanic process is your spiral of change, that death, rebirth never end as long as we're in these bodies. And so maybe we can finish to if kind of blessing where anybody is out there, that this isn't judgment, we're not pathologizing these points in the triangle, we're saying that, you could almost say that the roles of victim rescuer perpetrator is when you are unconscious about what's happening. And you're taking it as ultimate reality. We're simply asking you, it doesn't mean you may change it tomorrow, you're pull yourself out, or you're still be in hopefully, survivor thriver or finding a good coach or challenger. But stepping back from it enough to give some space, and maybe even have a sense of humor. About there I go again, or you know where you are in and take that gift of that breath and create a little space around it. Because we need, life is dramatic. I mean, I think what we want to try to avoid is the melodrama and the unconscious drama that we actually are fueling. But rather know that we can maybe be a little more conscious, a little more playful, a little bit more skillful choosing to what degree and how and not keep perpetuating something that is actually digging us deeper into a hole or the quicksand.

And it is I want to say and this is something you know, at the same time, when I'm working with people mentoring people and healing from codependency I say it's as lethal as any drug It probably is one of the leading causes of suicide. Right? Because you can feel so desperate and so lost. And I know I've shared I've been suicidal three times in my life as without alcohol, drugs and being highly successful. It was literally losing myself in someone else's drama. And, and, and then blaming myself.

McCall
Exactly.

Michael
Right?

So anybody out there suffering know that we love you. And, you know, it's we are all in this together. And we need each other to do the work that we have to do alone. But I want to give you a chance to any final thoughts, you know, any final comments? And also, again, how people can you know, find you I just highly recommend McCall I, I just she's gonna be doing big things. There's so many things I see in you and so much that I I can just see unfolding for you in the future. And I'm just excited that I found you at this stage of your career before I can still get you on my podcast.

McCall  1:01:14 
That's very kind. Thank you. I mean, you just touched on the perfect way to close this because
I mean, the reason I brought up the drama triangle again in my podcast now, even though I started working on it 20 years ago is because I was facing a new round of it. And going What the hell, right? There's nowhere...what's going on here. I thought I worked on this, you know, I thought it wasn't codependent, whatever.

So it's the spiraling. And I'm I'm I'm always working with this idea that we're learning to do the same things differently. And that's what we take in the spiral journey. So maybe there's always a triangle of drama, but it's different. You know, maybe that's why I like the compassion triangle. Because what are we just some detached zombies where like, like, peace can be kind of boring, if all you have is peace and no drama. So it's that balance and learning that I really appreciate what you said, like letting ourselves be where we are and realizing that this is normal, this is normal, to be caught up in drama to be hijacked from yourself to to be operating from places of of trauma to to not know, you know, not know yourself, be disconnected. We're born into that in this world. So the healing, we gained a little bit of consciousness and awareness each time a little bit more self love each time, a little bit more self compassion. But we're, we're always in those spirals. It's the spiral journey. So allowing ourselves to be that that brings it home and keeps it real, because that's real. That's what's real.

Michael
Yes. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, absolutely. Thank you, McCall. And it reminds me of that same idea that as much as we want to touch the source and unity and that timeless, ageless deathless place, which is ultimate reality, but which is also outside of time, that this realm is one of duality. Now it's nested in a unity, it's kinda like the Tao is the unity and then the Yin Yang is to duality that makes the dance of being here. But I, you know, I would say, you know, electricity does not none of what we're doing could be possible without a negative and positive poll. electricity needs a negative and positive to, which means it needs opposition, to run, it needs opposition to flow, a river doesn't flow without a tension of opposites. And the more dramatic, the, the, the terrain, the more beautiful the river with the rapids and the louder the song. So I, I love this where we're landing because it is I know, for both of us so much about not pathologizing the human condition with all of the light and dark and honoring the whole human catastrophe. You know, I always say we're a paradoxical contradictory package of animal, human and divine, you know, and just trying to, to, to calming the deeper layers of awareness, but that those other parts of us, the animal and human parts of us are really the energy I remember William Blake saying, Go to hell for energy and going to heaven to form and marry them. And he had his whole series of poems called the marriage of heaven and hell. And, you know, it's very, to me, that's kind of what both of us are really on in terms of, you know, the confluence of our work alchemically in shamanically and soulfully. So, so thank you. Thank you for being here and again, the way people can connect with you.

McCall

Oh, yeah, Best place is my website, McCall Erickson.com. I'm also on Instagram and Twitter. And my podcast is Falling Into Soul on wherever you listen to podcasts.

Michael

I highly recommend Falling Into Soul and you get a chance to hear McCall sing, she sings like an angel, just, it seems I need to say something deeper than that. It's because it's deeper than knowing our spiritual background, you know, like soulfully in deep and from the heart. So thank you for being here. Thank you for taking your journey. Thank you for sharing your journey. Your tell them a little bit about your book in your new book, too, because the title to me are worth hearing. Well, the first book is the second half of the mountain. And you can find it on Amazon. The second book, I haven't released the title yet. So I'm glad I'm glad you didn't say it because I know you know it, but I am working on it. And it's coming up very soon. So it's a follow up book to the second half of the mountain.

Michael  1:06:08 
It's It's exciting. It's such she writes very beautifully and from the heart and very transparently in this very courageous and vulnerable sharing on dark times. And, And to me, that's a real test of, you know, a writer and healer and, and a Alchemist. So thank you McCall Erickson for being on Musitations. And having a soulverstation we once again, for those that don't know, I'm here on the Gulf Coast and you are in Hawaii. Yes.

By the way, I have to tell you, and we can talk after but I'm so excited this script I'm working on the sea turtle honu I think, is a big theme, a big symbol throughout. I'll have to tell you more about it. And it's it's all it's actually, pretty much everything we've talked about is is in the screenplay I'm working on. So I forgot you're in Hawaii. And I've been reading all about honu. And we have here and I'm very connected to them. Oh, yeah. We'll talk more about that.

McCall
That's awesome. I love that.

Michael 1:07:14 
You well. Take care. Goddess godness bless you.

McCall T
Thank you, brother.

Michael
To all the listeners out there. We wish you well on your journey. Namaste.

McCall  1:07:32 
Thank you for tuning in and being with me in this space. If you would like to support the show or find more of my work. Go to McCallErickson.com. Until next time, be well in Soul.